Join Bronson Hill on the Mailbox Money Show for another packed conversation with multifamily operator Kent Ritter on what the recent market correction truly revealed about investing in apartments. Kent shares hard-won lessons from the post-2022 downturn, why many new sponsors struggled, and why disciplined operators in strong, supply-constrained Midwest markets are now positioned for attractive opportunities. The discussion covers supply/demand fundamentals, the importance of operational excellence, conservative underwriting in a higher-rate environment, and how passive investors can reframe past challenges to capitalize on the current cycle.
Kent Ritter is the CEO and founder of Hudson Investing, a multifamily private equity firm focused on the Midwest. With a background in business ownership and deep experience in real estate, Kent specializes in acquiring and operating apartments in stable, job-growing markets like Indianapolis and Cincinnati. He also hosts the Ritter on Real Estate podcast, where he interviews top operators and shares practical insights for investors.
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Full Transcript:
Bronson Hill: Welcome to the Mailbox Money Show.
I’m your host, Bronson Hill. I’m super excited to be here. We’ve been running this.
This is the fourth season we’ve been doing the Mailbox Money Show, so this is hundreds of episodes. We just love really bringing incredible operators, incredible asset classes to you so you can learn about what it means to be a great investor. I think that there’s a lot of nuance around multi-family investing.
Multi-family went from 2010 to about 2022. You really couldn’t do a whole lot wrong. You were a genius if you owned real estate, if you owned multi-family.
And then the tide came out, and you got to see you swimming naked. There was a lot of pain. A lot of listeners.
We had deals, like I said, that we’ve done, had absolute home runs with, and we’ve had things where there were big challenges. So I think it’s important to be able to talk about that. Today, we’re going to talk about the multi-family market.
We’re going to talk to my friend Kent Ritter, who is an amazing guy. He’s the CEO of Hudson Investing. It’s a multi-family private equity firm, and they primarily invest in the Midwest, which the Midwest was really very different than a lot of the south, southeast areas a lot of people were focused on.
And the Midwest is known to be a stronger cash flow area, has less swings. It’s less sexy in a lot of ways, but it’s just it’s been very steady. And he also has a show of his own that I believe I’ve been a guest on as well called Ritter on Real Estate podcast.
And so he also interviews top operators and investors. But Kent, really excited to have you with us today. Welcome to the show.
Kent Ritter: Hey, Bronson, thanks for having me on, man. Yeah, really excited to be here.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, excited to have you. So we were just talking about this a little before we started recording that with multi-family, there’s a lot of nuance. Some people like to say, oh, multi-family is crap, or it’s not it’s no good anymore or whatever, and it’s not as easy as that.
And I think that for a lot of people, if they’ve had a challenge with something, it associates like a difficult memory or it’s hard to think of going back to something like if I was in a certain part of town and I got attacked or something, so I don’t want to go back to the part of town, right? So I can feel like that. But I do think that there’s the feeling Warren Buffett says of, being greedy when others are fearful.
And I think there are some incredible opportunities, right? Are the deals that we have seen in multifamily and other areas, there’s some phenomenal deals. So a lot of people have really reached a point of fear.
And talk about kind of the last couple of years and what’s happened in the last few years. And let’s just kind of talk about where we’re at right now.
Kent Ritter: Yeah, I mean, it’s a topic I talk about almost every day, Bronson. I mean, whether it’s with current investors and new investors or just you know, people in the industry. It is interesting kind of where the cycle has gone, right? I mean, if you think about back to maybe 2017 to 2021, maybe even before that, like you said, you really couldn’t go wrong investing in multifamily and not even multifamily, but but a lot of real estate asset classes right through that time performed very well.
Industrial, even office at that time pre-COVID was doing very well. So it really you could almost throw a dart at a wall and hit something and do do very well in real estate. And, you know, and then what did we see, right?
We saw a move where in 22 interest rates increased. We saw inflation increase rapidly. Right.
And and what we saw was really, you know, those grew many of the groups in that time, let’s say even 15 to 21, right? There was so many people that started raising capital, so many people that started buying deals. There were these massive like coaching programs that launched, right?
That were spinning out thousands of people a year to become syndicators who were out then raising money. And I think, unfortunately, what we’ve seen is a lot of those folks weren’t great operators, unfortunately. They were they’re really being held up by the market by cap rate compression, right?
So you could buy a property and do nothing and turn around next year and the property might be worth, you know, 10, 15, 20% more because of it just how how hot the market was, right?
Bronson Hill: Real quick, to your point real quick, we had a deal in Jacksonville we did. It was 288 units and I remember exactly when we bought it, but we bought it around maybe 2021 or 2020, 2021, it was been 2021 and it was $27 million and then 10 months later, where we’re still kind of in renovations, it was worth 37 million and so we sold it. We thought it were geniuses, but you know, it’s better to be sometimes lucky than good, right?
Kent Ritter: That’s right. And everybody had deals like that during that time, which I think, unfortunately, created like a false sense of maybe security or expertise or, you know, that you could just, you could scale rapidly and do this again. And we saw a lot of people that started around the same time as me scale, maybe 2050X what I was doing, in that time.
But then now, some of those groups aren’t aren’t around anymore. And so I think it was interesting that the private equity group that I was at before I started my own firm. They actually did it at one point analysis on it within their own portfolio. Because they had about maybe 20,000 units or so at the time, and it’s how much of the value was created through operations and how much was created through cap rate compression, right? So they were really looking to kind of dissect that and understand to get down to really operational, really true operational value add, right?
Like by being a great operator, like, are you really creating value? And so it was really, it was interesting to see. But I think, unfortunately, that was the case, right?
And it kind of felt like you could do no wrong. The barrier to entry was very low, capital was very cheap. And it was really this new time, too, that really started. It started for me, back with like crowdfunding sites, you know, where people had access to these alternative investments.
You know, and some of the deals I’ve lost money on were a couple of my first deals that I did on crowdfunding sites, before I even started doing this myself, right? When I was like, given my toe in the water, when I was still had a WII job. So you fast forward then, right?
So that happened. And unfortunately, yeah, I mean, I, some of our investors who invested with other people and just others, I know. Unfortunately, you know, have lost money or kind of their capital stuck and in these deals now. So it has given people kind of a bad taste for, for maybe for real estate, maybe for multifamily, just kind of like you said, like not wanting the analogy you gave right of going back and then you don’t want to go back to the same place.
And it’s unfortunate because, real estate, like everything else does kind of move in cycles. That was definitely a unique time that I don’t believe will happen again. That was largely driven because interest rates were so artificially low, right? For so long.
And now I think what’s happened, if you fast forward to 2026, I think what you’ve seen is really a culling of the herd. And you see the group still around now have to be good operators.
It’s the only way that they’re, they’re still there. It’s the only way those deals can still be performing. Cause the only way to create value now is through good operations.
Bronson Hill: Yeah. You can’t wing it anymore.
Hey, you know, let’s talk about that a little bit as an investor. Cause I think there’s a piece that we talk about a lot, you know, in the mailbox money show where there’s a lot of passive investors that are, hey, you know, I’m trying to figure out how to, how to grow my cash flow. I’m trying to figure out how to retire.
I’m trying to figure out how to be a good investor so that, you know, as Warren Buffett says, I don’t lose money and losing money is a very hard experience. You go through it and I’ve seen people have different responses. Some people will feel very defeated and like, oh, I’m just not a good investor.
And they kind of like never want to do it again, right? Other people are, they blame. They all, it’s, it’s them.
It’s this operator, it’s the market, it’s, and they just blame.
There’s no learning, but I think that really there’s an opportunity anytime you go through a challenge in life or, you know, in an investment or anything, it’s opportunity to learn and to say, Hey, I’m going to actually get from this, uh, you know, if I lost $100,000. I’m going to get a hundred thousand dollars worth of education out of this so that I can learn from this.
And so there’s some lessons there and I think there’s some temperament that you learn. And it’s interesting now we, we saw, you know, one deal we did in Atlanta, you know, from an over 24 month period from, when his deal closed, I think it was December of 21 until December of 23, the value of that property in the exact same condition went down by 40%.
Completely independent of anything in the property, which is rough. And if you’re 20, 30% down, it doesn’t matter what you’ve done, you’re upside down.
Right. And so, right now it’s a lot of these valuations have not recovered. And so, you know, we’re still seeing things at 2016 pricing.
So it, ideally it’s actually a much, much lower risk time, but at the time when you’re raising money for all this stuff, the easiest time to raise money is probably actually the worst time to raise money. Right. So what’s that?
I mean, talk about the psychology of it. And how do you kind of, if I’m a passive investor and I’ve gone through some challenges. How do I kind of get my head around, okay, I went in this and it didn’t go as well. But this is actually the best time to jump back in. How do you kind of reframe?
Kent Ritter: Yeah, man. That’s a really, really good question. And I think there’s a couple, I would break this down into a couple points.
One, it’s just not, not doing it is, is not the right answer. Right.
So doing nothing is not the right answer, right? If you just, and I’m not even saying invest in real estate. I’m speaking more broadly of like, you have to educate yourself on how to invest because if you’re not investing, you will never reach your, the financial goals that you have, whatever they are, right?
There, you cannot save your way to whatever financial freedom means to you, right? Even if it just means having a decent retirement, like all the data’s in, like you can sock all the money away in your 401k you want, you will not be able to retire in the same lifestyle that you’re living now on just your 401k of returns, right?
So you have to be investing outside of that. And alternatives are including real estate are a great, great way to do that, right?
If you look at some of the richest people in the world, there’s a group I follow Tiger 21, and it’s essentially a group of these ultra high net worth people, right? And they publish every quarter. They’re combined asset allocation and they are consistently like 40 high forties, even 50% in these like alternative or private investments, like private equity, real estate, right?
And so it’s like if the richest people in the world are doing it and they’re doing it to tune of almost half their portfolio, like it works if you do it in the right way, right? Because the returns will, if done in the right way, I mean, just so if you look at averages. Like they will outpace historically how the market equities have done over long term. These type of private investments, but you’ve got to do it in the right way. But so my first point is just, you can’t let one bad experience because like they’re like, like I said, a couple of experiences I had before I started doing this on my own. I lost money and a couple of crowdsource deals.
You know why? Because I didn’t know what due diligence was and I didn’t do good due diligence. I’m already scrolling a website and I clicked a button and invested, right?
And I own that like that was on me, right? Like I did not know what I was doing. I did not check in. I did not ask a question. But you got to you’ve got to own your investment, like your financial future and you’ve got to learn about it. And it doesn’t mean so it doesn’t mean just stop is my whole point.
And then when you get it down to, should you invest in multifamily? Well, I’m obviously biased, but but I can tell you my reason I got into multifamily is because I looked at so many different strategies, even outside of real estate, because what happened in my life was I sold a business and I had capital, I needed to invest to that capital. And so, OK, well, how do I invest that capital?
I looked at all kinds of things, all different alternatives and real estate really checked the boxes for me, right? For the same reasons it always has because over the long term, I mean, real estate is proven to be one of the best ways to make money and appreciation over the long term. It’s one of the only really taxed advantage types of solutions, right?
It can produce great cash flow and all those things are still true. So like those fundamental things about why real estate is a good investment. Why people have been doing it for thousands of years, like haven’t changed in the last four or five years, right? It’s again, how do you do it?
And then multifamily, for me, because I’ve done all the others. I’ve done single family, I’ve done industrial, I’ve done all kinds of things. Multifamily was really about a fundamental thing for me because I had an economics minor in college and it’s about supply and demand. And it’s just the fact that we are so upside down on housing in this country and it’s gotten worse over the past couple of years in the amount of we just don’t have. We are a million short of the amount of houses or apartments that we need in this country to have enough for everybody to have what they need, right?
So the demand is way higher than the supply. And what does E-con 101 teach you in that environment when demand outpaces supply prices increase, right? It doesn’t mean it happens in a straight line, but over time, like the bigger macro trend will play out.
And so multifamily for me became, okay, I said, so I want to invest in stuff people live in, right? That was a key thesis of mine. I started out in single family, but the problem with single family to me was it was so much riskier because you just imagine, one, it’s hard to scale.
Two, if you lose one tenant, well, who’s paying the mortgage? You are, right? In multifamily, many times, I mean, we could have 20, 25% of the people leave our property and we’re still able to pay our bills.
We’re still able to pay the mortgage. And so there’s just a great safety in that. So multifamily was about building scale.
So to me, it was like, I wanted to invest in something people lived in because I knew the supply and demand dynamics were favorable and they were long-term favorable. Like that problem is not going to solve itself in the next 10, 15 years. And then I knew that multifamily had the safety in scale and that economy is a scale, which is why I really said, okay, this is the thing I’m going to double down on.
And now to get to today, why today should you jump back in? Because of what you said, the example you gave on your property, where the property went down in value 40%, that’s happened across the country. In some markets, more markedly than others, but even in Indianapolis, we’ve seen cap rates expand about a percentage point to a percent and a half over the past couple of years.
And when you think about that, that means the property is probably, you’re 15% to 20% less priced than it was just a few years before, right? And so I believe that we are in an environment right now where there are good deals that we had. I believe we are in a unique time as we see interest rates come down. And it’s impossible to predict what interest rates will do in the future.
But I believe they are going to come down from where they are. And in that environment, where capital becomes cheaper, cap rates and over time, you see a pretty strong correlation between where interest rates go and cap rates go.
So you expect this kind of natural spread of maybe 150 to 200 basis points or one and a half to 2% between kind of interest rates and cap rates over a longer term time. So because of all that, I do actually think right now in the right markets, which is why I like the Midwest, because we’re still seeing rent growth here, because we haven’t seen the big supply booms. I say nationwide supply and demand are out of whack.
But in some markets, supply has largely shot up and temporarily exceeded demand. Those are the markets where you’re seeing rents decrease. And those are the markets where people have really struggled with their deals.
But in the Midwest, in cities like Cincinnati and Indianapolis where we invest, we haven’t seen that. We haven’t seen that. We’ve been created from a lot of certain areas.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, it really has been more pronounced and obviously in certain areas. And you just you showed a whole lot there, a lot of a lot of great value there. And I think that as an investor, it is so important that you continually reframe and just say, well, what are my goals?
What am I trying to actually get done and again, there’s such a psychology to investing and it can feel really hard to go back to something that’s been either it hasn’t performed or hasn’t performed well and be like, but this is the time to get in. And it’s the being greedy when others are fearful. I mean, I know the examples I bought precious metals, quite a bit of precious metals about five, six years ago.
And gold’s gone up probably three and a half X, and silver has gone up like I don’t know, six to eight X, right? So this stuff happens. So again, I think it’s important to really try to figure out for each asset class. Whether it’s multifamily, it’s precious metals, it’s RV parks, it’s stocks or it’s a specific stock.
If you start seeing it on the news and on magazine covers and your Uber drivers talking about crypto, whatever. Well, maybe it’s time to get out of whatever it is, whatever. But if it’s something that like, it’s a bit out of favor and actually should make it more attractive because there’s this idea of being a contrarian and really doing the unpopular thing or something that will become popular.
And we know there’s a need. We know there’s a demand there. And that’s how people like Warren Buffett have become very wealthy over time.
I wanted to ask you specifically, I know you’re doing deals. We talked a little bit before you have a deal you’re working on and some deals you’re working on in the Midwest, kind of your bread and butter. And you mentioned there’s there’s ways to do deals right now that are not the right way to do it, in your opinion.
And there’s ways that kind of some parameters are different rules that you have when it comes to doing certain types of deals. What sort of things do you recommend people look at that are looking at deals right now in multifamily?
Kent Ritter: Yeah, another great question. And I can kind of give this this property that we’re working on right now, you know, as an example. It’s in a so it’s in Westfield, Indiana, which also happens to be where I live. And it’s one of the fastest growing cities in the country.
And it’s a northern suburb of Indianapolis, but there’s just massive job growth, massive population growth. It’s where a lot of the affluency in Indianapolis has moved the north side. And it’s grown 34% in the last five years.
We’re seeing that expected to continue over kind of the next 10. So what I’m saying is you want to be in a high growth market. You want to be in a market that’s expanding because, you know, it’s very you get the best property.
But if it’s in a market that’s contracting, I mean, that’s a tailwind or a headwind that’s really difficult to get in front of, right? Yeah, you’re you’re fighting for a shrinking amount of of residents, right? Of clients, right?
And so you want to be in a market that’s expanding. You want to be in a market where there’s job growth specifically because people move places because of jobs primarily. You know, they will live in certain neighborhoods because of schools, but they primarily move cities because of jobs.
And so you want to look at job growth, you want to look at population growth. That those are major things you want to see. You want to you want to you want I think more and more it’s become important to to be in a place that is kind of, quote unquote, landlord friendly ride or when you’re talking about things like rent control or some of these these legal things that can kind of come out and completely flip how your properties are performing or the the the ability to create value going forward.
Right. So you got to look at kind of the the regulatory environment and the political environment of where you’re investing. So the property that we have in Westfield, Indiana, which is in Hancock County, is, you know, kind of checks all those boxes, right?
And then you think it’s got an A plus school system as well. And so it’s like quality of the market is extremely important because those are just is it are you going to face headwinds or tailwinds? Right.
And I’d rather be somewhere where there’s tailwinds behind me.
Bronson Hill: Yeah.
Kent Ritter: From there, I think people have really investors and where we’re seeing these kind of two markets is in stuff built 2000 and after and stuff built 2000 before, there really is this kind of bifurcation where we’re seeing investors really go strongly and valuations increasing on properties built after 2000 that are kind of B, you know, B plus a class properties where we’ve really seen valuations hit our older C class properties where there’s probably in my mind been a little bit of an over overcorrection there.
So there could be a buying opportunity right now, but definitely not a good time to sell those type of properties. But but we’re seeing valuations increasing on kind of large. Some people call them like institutional style, right?
So it’s a 300 unit property. It’s been owned by large institutions in the past. It’s got all the amenities and it’s it’s really different than what’s being built now because land prices have gone up so much.
This property is on a 24 acre campus. The land across the street is selling for one point two million an acre. So you just it’d be impossible to build again because the land alone would cost 30 million dollars.
Well, you know, and so there’s just a big barrier to entry and ever recreating it. And so like for those reasons are things, you know, great market, growing market, good schools, good jobs, large property. We talked about economies of scale and safety and size, right?
The ability to hire great managers and pay them a fantastic salary because of the size of the property, all those good things. Those are the type of deals that we’re seeing performed very well right now. And also from the market being accepted with a ton of excitement, right, we’re seeing prices bidding wars and things for that type of great product.
Bronson Hill: It’s interesting, too. You know, a lot of us, you know, a lot of people do want, you know, cash flow. I think cash flow has been one thing that’s been challenging in some multifamily deals.
It used to be that there was a lot of cash flow in deals. I know that’s kind of pinched because, you know, rates have been a little higher than they were and then also costs and other things have gone up. But there is this long term move that we don’t we don’t know when it’s going to happen.
It happens in different markets at different times. But there is so much, you know, I believe so much currency creation that’s happening by the federal government that over time you just have this built in kind of inflation hedge with a thing like multifamily where you look at rents. There’s this great chart from the magazine Mother Jones that basically shows from 1960 to present.
It’s almost like it’s almost like a one for one parallel of like rents and inflation. They kind of go hand in hand. And so and I love to if you have a 10 percent increase in the value of your property.
A lot of times that could be you know, a 25 percent increase or more in your equity just because of the leverage that’s going into it. Right. So so it’s amazing when that happens and obviously you can refinance and do all kinds of fun stuff which everybody loves infinite returns.
But what are some I mean, where do you see multifamily going in the next three to five years? Do you think that things are going to come back to where they were ahead? Do you think it’s just I mean, what do you kind of see is going to be kind of bumpy along the way?
Is this kind of where we’re at? Just going to continue and gradually grow over time?
Kent Ritter: Well, yeah, I mean, as you think about it again, overall, right, like there’s still if you think nationwide there’s still a supply and demand gap and it’s never I mean, interest rates have come down a little bit. But as of recent, it’s never been more expensive to own a home, right? The gap between renting and owning the cost of owning kind of your entry level home had never been wider.
And so I think that we continue to become more of a nation of renters. You know, I don’t see home values really coming down. I at least I know around where I live.
I think if as interest rates come down, housing prices are only going to continue to go up. So I don’t see housing single family housing become becoming more affordable. So I think people continue to rent longer.
You know, we’re seeing people rent five to seven years longer than they would have, you know, even five to 10 years ago. I think that continues, I think more people rent.
And I think some people decide to rent for most of their lives. I think because of that, I think the the demand and supply dynamics and multifamily continue to do very well. You know, I think in the Midwest and we definitely have seen a cooling on supply.
You know, we’ve definitely seen that, you know, even it wasn’t as much as in like the Atlanta’s or the Phoenix’s of the world, but we’ve seen even supply begin to come down. I think as rates continue to drop, you know, I don’t think rates ever go back to zero like they were, right? But I do think they’re higher than kind of where they will normalize.
I think as rates continue to drop, we will see cost of capital become cheaper, which means leverage can increase on properties again, which means you require less equity to buy, which I think means that, you know, values will go up over the next, let’s call it two, three years. And I think as supply runs off when we see rents go back to being positive in some markets and continue to accelerate in other markets, I do think it’ll be a good time to to sell multifamily. I think right now is a good time to buy multifamily because what I said, I think cap rates are still, you know, higher than kind of their natural place or where they’ll be in a couple of years.
So I think as long as you’re buying the right properties, which I described what those are, I think it’s a good time to buy and I think it’ll be a good time to sell in, let’s say, maybe three to five years from now. It could be sooner, but as rates continue to work, work their way down and I mean, there’s still so much. If you think about all these groups like people investing like you and me, like we don’t move the needle.
But when there’s these groups that have billions of dollars to invest, right, that are largely still on the sidelines, but have to deploy capital. I mean, have mandates to deploy capital. I’ve been waiting years now, some of them three years to do it.
You know, there is a point where capital has to be deployed and you say, where does capital get deployed, right? And if you’re if you’re deploying a trillion dollars in capital, I mean, it’s inevitably some of it’s going to roll a real estate in other places. And so I do think there will be increased buying and increased transactions in the market, as we’re already seeing this year compared to last year and the end the year before.
So I think there’ll be more activity. I think there’s a good time right now to buy where prices are depressed. And I think we’ll see prices expand over the next kind of three to five years.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, I think that’s definitely I agree with that. I think that, you know, it’s telling the exact timing can be a little tricky, but I think that, you know, it’s buyers, a lot of the big institutional buyers are buying it. I mean, people and even people that I, you know, Ken McElroy is a good friend of mine.
They bought 600 million in real estate in the last 12 months. Right. So just buying a lot of people are buying a lot right now because of the opportunity.
And so we’re seeing now there’s more great deals and there is money available to go buy them. So that’s where I think it’s it’s important to look at. Well, Ken, really appreciate you being with us today.
It’s been a great conversation. Really encourage people to reach out to you and to connect and appreciate all the value add. And I realize you actually have a a meetup, a live meetup that you run in Indianapolis as well, which is awesome.
I ran a meetup in L.A. for about six years. And so I actually have somebody I can connect you with who’s doing multifamily in Indiana. I think you’d enjoy connecting with her.
So how can people reach out and find out what you’re doing and follow your stuff?
Kent Ritter: Yeah, there’s a couple of easy ways. I mean, the first one is go to HudsonInvesting.com. That’s our home base.
We’ve got some investor education on there. You can learn about deals we’re working on, set up a call with me or one of my team members. And then the other way is to listen to my podcast right around real estate, you know, really similar to what Bronson’s doing here, talking to great people, helping educate yourselves and take control of your financial future like we talked about.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, I love it, man. Well, awesome. We’ll put that in the show notes.
I really appreciate you sharing and I look forward to spending more time if you can. But I appreciate you being here. And thanks to our audience.
I just want to share to to our listener, just, you know, it’s so important that you continue to educate yourself. That’s what you’re doing here by listening to a show like this, also listening to Ken’s show as well. And it’s important to look at things that might be a little bit of a counter argument to what you think.
You might be like, oh, I really love doing crypto or I love doing the only self storage or whatever. That’s great. And those things may work for certain seasons.
But as investors, you have the choice of what asset you want to go into. So it’s important that you think critically and you look not just that, hey, emotionally, what feels good right now or what’s kind of what are my friends doing? But what really would make sense?
What’s kind of out of favor? And I think multifamily definitely hits that right now where it’s something that and that’s it’s been frustrating in the last couple of years to really be excited about multifamily and then just have people be resistant to when we get into it. And that can be challenging, right?
It used to be, I think it was five to 10 times easier to raise capital for a lot of deals just because an investor sentiment was so, so strong. I mean, I’m probably very rationally strong. But so as an investor, it’s important that you stay grounded.
You are fearful and others are reading reasons, others are fearful. So I appreciate you guys being here and look forward to seeing you guys on the next episode of the Mailbox Money Show. Thanks, everyone.
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