Join Bronson Hill on the Mailbox Money Show for a replay of this powerful Due Diligence Masterclass webinar, where a battle-tested panel shares hard-earned lessons on spotting red flags, avoiding costly mistakes, and protecting capital in today’s high-stakes investing landscape.
The Panel:
Jason Hartman
Founder of Empowered Investor and Hartman Media, host of the long-running Creating Wealth Show podcast (one of the earliest real estate investing podcasts). He’s a veteran real estate investor, educator, and author focused on income-producing properties, nationwide investing strategies, and helping people build wealth through controlled, direct real-estate ownership.
Denis Shapiro
Founder of SIH Capital Group, specializing in multifamily and alternative real estate investments. He is the author of a comprehensive guide on alternative investing (often referred to as the “Almanac of Alternative Investing”). Denis has deep experience raising capital, structuring deals, and navigating both successful syndications and painful lessons from fraudulent schemes.
Tom Burns
Physician-turned-real-estate investor and founder of the Rich Life Mastermind. With decades of experience in multifamily real estate, Tom is known for his practical, conservative approach to investing. He emphasizes transparency, market-rate returns, and thorough vetting; he previously presented “How to Spot the Wolf Before the Wolf Spots You” at Bronson’s Wealth Forum events.
Whether you’re a passive investor tired of black-box deals or an operator building trust, this session delivers actionable green/red flags, real-world fraud stories, and mindset shifts to turn obstacles into resilience. Don’t invest blind—equip yourself with the tools to see the wolf before it sees you.
Bronson Hill: All right, welcome, welcome, welcome.
We’re in some people in the room here.
Let’s make sure the chat is working. I’m gonna go ahead and you should be able to chat with everyone now. Let’s go ahead and drop in the chat where you’re coming in from people that coming from all around the world to attend these events. We do these every month.
So we have events on real estate. We do events on alternative assets. This one is on diligence. We’ve had some on Bitcoin versus Gold and just all kinds of different topics.
So well, we’ve done AI business different things.
We’ve got Philadelphia. I love that, awesome. We’re gonna go ahead and drop in the chat where you’re coming in from, just so we can see you. And actually, you can drop in the chat who you’re most excited to see today. Who brought you in, and how, who you’re excited to see.
We got Dallas, Texas. Thanks for that.
I’m gonna just blow this up a little bigger so I can see it. We got Shamim and Vinay.
Awesome. Thanks so much, and Wallingford, Connecticut. Love that.
It looks like you can chat with hosts and panels. I’m gonna try to make it so you can chat with everybody in here, so that everybody can chat. You should build a chat with everyone. So now you should build a chat with, with everyone. Southern California. I love it.
Welcome, welcome. Awesome. Well guys, I’m very excited to see you, if we have not met.
My name is Bronson Hill. I’m the CEO of Bronson Equity. We’ve got about 250 million in multifamily real estate. We’ve also done other types of business deals, private equity, oil and gas, other types of things as well. I just want to welcome you to this place. We try to create events like this, where we can bring in experts, have expert panels, and talk about things that are relevant today.
And I just want to say before we get started. This is a due diligence panel. I don’t know if you were affected like me. Generally, this is not a political show, but I just want to mention Charlie Kirk’s death this last week. It just really impacted me a lot, in a lot of ways. I’m just so grateful that, we are able to, at least for the most part, stand up and say what we want and what we believe. And that’s really what makes America, right?
That we have free speech, and we need to protect that. And it just really inspired me to be more bold with my own opinions, and what I think, and what I feel about things, whether it’s faith, or politics, or other things. Because if we only have these in private places, the people that scream the loudest just simply are the ones that are really listened to. So I just encourage you to state your opinions, share, and we’re gonna have a great time today.
We’re a great panel. Let me welcome our panelists up again. This is the Due Diligence webinar on things you can do to prevent losses. I know most of us want to prevent losses here all of us would be, if you’re an investor. That’s real number one, investing according to the great Warren Buffett.
So let’s go and welcome our attendees. You’re seeing our panelists up here, and we’ll keep that chat box open there. We’re gonna have some questions towards the end. This is being recorded, so we will be recording, and you will get a replay of this later in the day. And for those of you watching later, we welcome you as well.
Alright, so let me go ahead and welcome our panelists here. We have, from the Rich Life Mastermind, Tom Burns, who’s a good friend. Tom, welcome really excited to have you today. I know you were a physician, and now you’ve actually been doing real estate for many years. And you actually did a presentation that we’re gonna hear about: How to Spot the Wolf Before the Wolf Spots You. You did that for our Wealth Forum group, our high net worth investor group that we do in person. Actually, we did that in Austin, Texas last year.
That was incredible. So welcome, Tom.
Tom Burns: Hey, thanks. Great to be here. Thanks, Bronson.
Bronson Hill: I’m excited to have you here. Next, you’ve got Denis Shapiro from SIH Capital Group. He literally wrote The Almanac of Alternative Investing I’m not sure if that’s exactly the name but it’s an incredible book. It talks about the different types of alternative assets. On my podcast, called The Mailbox Money Show, I think you guys have all been guests, probably multiple times on there. We talk about a lot of alternative assets.
And so, Denis, excited to have you today. I don’t you want to give just a quick intro on what you invest in? And, I’m sorry, to give some a chance actually, let’s hold it. Let’s just say welcome.
We’ll give you a chance when we start here, but excited to have you and thanks for being here.
Next, we have Jason Hartman, a good friend of mine been friends for a long time. I actually followed his podcast, one of the first real estate podcasts ever, and then became friends. I was starstruck when I got to know him then I wasn’t starstruck but he’s an amazing guy. He is The Empowered Investor and really, truly a great friend, awesome guy. From Hartman Media and The Empowered Investor, welcome, Jason. How you doing, brother?
Jason Hartman: Thanks, Bronson. Good to see you again. And I guess you’re not starstruck anymore.
Bronson Hill: So anyway, I’m excited to have you guys here. Let’s jump in and just talk. Obviously, we’ve seen a lot of things happen these last few years. It’s been said that you only see who’s been swimming naked when the tide goes out. And we’re gonna give you some specific examples. I know, Jason, you have an example, some stories. But let’s kind of just talk a little bit about the last few years.
We’ve seen, different scams that are out there, right? We’ve seen Ponzi schemes. There was a carbon capture deal, the ATM fund, that we actually had some involvement with not from an illegal point. Just that we raised money and put it in a deal. And we thought we’d done diligence there. So I just want to be I think, when it comes to diligence, it’s really important.
There’s a lot of people that say, “I’ve never had losses,” or, “I’ve never done anything, never made any mistakes.” It’s really important we talk about mistakes. We talk about things that don’t go well. We talk about those things.
So we’re gonna talk about this stuff today. I hope you maybe you have some scars if you’ve been an investor for any amount of time. There’s gonna be things that went better than expected, there could be some things that didn’t go as well as expected. If it hasn’t happened yet, it probably will happen at some point in the future.
So, just wanted to kind of go around the room. What’s the I guess let’s just talk about this first. Defining risk is very difficult, right? I feel like sometimes risk can change very quickly in a deal. You think it’s low risk, and all of a sudden rates rise, and now, gosh, we’re really at risk. We saw multi-family properties.
Why don’t we talk a little bit about kind of where we’re at, how you perceive risk today, and just how you approach diligence. Who would like to start?
Denis Shapiro: I could jump in. Well, I think it’s important that the deals that have been going bad recently there’s been two different, there’s like a dichotomy between those two different deals. One is the all-out, outright fraud, where there really was no business there. It was a Ponzi scheme.
I also, in my career, I’ve invested in three, which is amazing. So I’ve learned from every single one of them. And most of the time I invested in a specific time period it was like a 12–18 month period where I didn’t really learn from the first one. So it’s not like people say, “Well, how could you do it three times?” Well, if they all happen around the same time, you really don’t have a chance to really learn.
So, there’s those deals that have gone bad, and then, right now, I think I get an email a week from an investor of mine, or someone in my network, that says, “Hey, I’m not a syndicator, just sent out a bad deal.” And the commonality between all of those deals that have been going bad mostly in real estate, actually, almost all of them on the real estate side is those deals had variable loans that were needed to make that business plan work. Interest rates went up. Right now, it’s been kicking around everything like that, but eventually the music stops, and those deals do eventually get foreclosed on or whatever it is, and you’re starting to see a lot of that.
So I think it’s important, when we talk about risk, there are two different kinds of risk. There is just that fraudulent risk, and then there’s the risk where the fundamentals were bad in the first place, but now those fundamentals are just being exposed. Due to the fact that, like you said, the water has come out, those deals couldn’t really survive they were really thin in the first place. And now, I think investors are kind of learning that, “Hey, maybe those 20% projected returns were too good to be true.”
So, I think all of that, kind of just to summarize where risk falls, is it’s very, very wide, and two different investors could have completely different experiences on why a deal went bad. And there’s no real commonality between the two.
Bronson Hill: Right. I like that. I’m gonna put a poll in here oh, you see this? What’s your number one fear when investing passively? So, as we keep going, let’s let’s have you guys in the audience go ahead and answer that.
Tom Burns, how do you analyze risk, and what have you seen the last few years?
Tom Burns: Yeah, I think we all we all get short memories. It’s too bad we’re not like elephants and remember. Time goes on, and money is free and flows easily. And all of a sudden, five, ten, twenty years go by, and everybody’s an expert. Everybody’s a winner.
So I think that’s part of what happened. And, I was told by a guy who, two years before, had been a plumber. He said, “This is easy, real estate never goes bad. And if it ever does, it’s only Class A apartments.” I appreciated that insight that I got from that gentleman, but having been around, you know, we did our best to curb some risk. And like Denis said, you can’t get them.
All right, you know, you never know where you’re gonna get never know where you’re gonna get it from. So I look at risk as, you know… you know, I like that risk-reward ratio to be low, you know? Absolutely. I mean, boring is pretty profitable over a long period of time.
So I’m bouncing around the question, but I like having the control of real estate, which is sort of alternative investments. You’ve got control you can force the value and things like that. But there are risks to it that aren’t involved in a larger market, like the stock market.
So I think your network, your education, and your experience is what’s going to hedge your risk that’s what I probably should have just said at the beginning, and then shut up after that.
Bronson Hill: No, it’s great. I think that’s the challenge I found too analyzing risk can be difficult because the perception of risk can even change. And when we see black swan events, such as rates rising faster than they have in 40 years, or something happens in the markets dynamically, it’s almost like a game where the rules are changing. And so, how do you mitigate that? I think what you said is just to learn, and not…
Some people make one mistake, and they have a loss or a capital call, and they say, “I’m never gonna do this again,” right? We’ve seen people do that, and I guess, unfortunately, there are a lot of great lessons. One of the best lessons I learned was when I lost $70,000 in one day terrible lesson but I’ve made millions since then. And it came from, “Okay, this is not the best thing for me to do now.”
Jason Hartman, talk about how you analyze risk, what you’ve seen in the last few years in the market.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, Bronson. So, you know, just kind of a few points to dovetail on everybody else’s thoughts. The first thing is I want to expand on that idea. I remember a long time ago, when I was a traditional real estate agent a very young one. And I remember I was doing a deal, and I was doing really good business. You know, I was selling like 70 houses a year. I was one of the top agents for RE/MAX in the world at 24 years old.
And I remember doing a deal with this one agent, and she said that she never had a transaction fall out of escrow. And I thought, “You don’t do any transactions!” You know, and in order to do something, you must dare greatly, right? You must take action. Not all action will be perfect. Not everything will work out. You’ve got to have a tolerance for failure. Right? In Silicon Valley, a lot of the tech guys say, “Fail fast,” right?
And, and so, you just got to understand that that’s life. Okay? Life does not work out perfectly. Well, it’s messy.
Okay, and you’ve got to be able to tolerate some of that mess. One of the quotes that influenced me a lot when I was really just starting was: “I wonder, which is worse to try and fail, or to fail to try?” Right? You got it. You got to try things. That’s the only way you’re gonna learn stuff. It’s not all gonna go well.
And then the second point is that during the COVID era, we had one of the many phases of very easy money, right? The money supply was loose, the money was cheap. I remember, 25 years ago, back to the dot-com bubble the first dot-com bubble and you might remember that… and there was just this giddy like, excitement. There were all these people starting all these companies and if they put “dot-com” on the name, you know, suddenly they could raise money, and some of their businesses. Were like a complete joke.
Everybody’s a genius in a bull market. Everybody’s a genius when the money is cheap and plentiful.
Okay. You know, the real winners are the ones who can sustain through hard times, right? That’s the difference. And then Denis mentioned something, and I wanted to just expand on his point. The late Stephen Covey had a great distinction on when you’re analyzing risk what you could look for, right? There are two kinds of trust, not one kind. There’s confidence trust you have confidence in the other party that they’re gonna do what they say they’re gonna do and there’s competence trust.
Okay. They may do it you may have confidence in them but they might be really dumb and just mess up.
So, 21 years ago, when I started helping investors buy properties nationwide, I created a framework. And, just for lack of a better name, I called it The Ten Commandments of Successful Investing. The one that has resonated with people the most is Commandment Number Three. And, you know, before I tell you what Commandment Number Three is, I’m just gonna say: you can’t always do this, okay? But you’ve got to always remember it as something that should inform your decisions when you’re an investor.
Commandment Number Three is: Thou shalt maintain control.
We don’t raise any money or have any syndications or funds or anything like that. We just help people be direct investors. And I always say, when you relinquish control when you invest in someone else’s deal the three risks you take are:
Number one: You could be investing with a crook. There’s no shortage of Bernie Madoff, Enron, WorldCom, Global Crossing there are just a million stories like this in the big media. But there are smaller ones, like in our own industry recently: a guy with Narata Real Estate named Marco Santa Relli. He was just indicted for wire fraud, allegedly ripping investors off to the tune of $62.5 million. Pretty big. They’re accusing him of running a Ponzi scheme and so forth.
Number two: You might be investing with an idiot. They’ll lose your money because of their crookery or incompetence.
Number three: Assuming they’re honest and competent, they may take a very large management fee off the top for managing the deal. You’ll get something, but it won’t be as much as you should get.
Now, when I see promoters out there promoting a deal, they’re always promoting the deal. “Here’s an apartment building we want to buy, and we’re raising money for it,” right? But what they’re never talking about they talk about all the elements of the property, the deal, the market, how it’s a growing market, all this stuff but they never talk about the fees they’re charging.
Investors need to get very keen on: what kind of fees are they charging as a sponsor for running this deal? You know, they’re charging a fee for setting up the whole deal, but then they’re charging little fees like acquisition fees, disposition fees, management fees. Usually their own company’s doing the management. And that’s all fine.
Everybody’s got to get paid I get it. But as an investor, just be aware of this stuff and understand what the typical fees are. And, you know, is this sponsor or promoter charging the typical fees, or are they charging a lot more?
I remember one that I looked at the guy was actually on my show and he was doing mobile home park syndications. And, like, his sponsor fee was insane. It was ridiculous. The guy was super knowledgeable, and he was really interesting to talk to. But you’ve got to also not just vet the deal you’ve got to vet what you’re being charged in terms of fees.
You buy a mutual fund, and you would look at the fees that they’re being charged on that mutual fund. You should do the same thing in a syndication or a small fund. That’s all exactly.
Bronson Hill: I think fees are a big way and, like, I love that competence and trust element. And I think, honestly, this has taught me, too, that having some diversity is really important.
I know a guy, actually, at a dinner that you were at, Jason, and we did at Limitless recently.
This guy worked in the oil and gas space, and he had some oil and gas deals he invested in that we did, and he also had his company stock in oil and gas. He just loved what he was doing, having oil and gas. And I said, “You guys should do more.” He said, “No, I think you should probably do a lot of other things not related to your work.”
Because the problem is, like, this is what happened when people worked for Enron, right? It’s crazy. These were just regular people working, and then they had all their retirement stuff in Enron. And so, when Enron went up or, I mean, went down they not only lost their job, they lost all of their savings.
Yeah, so having things in different things can be really powerful.
Jason Hartman: Hey, one more comment on that, just quickly. Be careful when you think about competence trust be careful of trusting a resume.
Now, look, what else can you go by? You’ve got to look at the person’s track record. But I just want to say this: think about Bernie Madoff, who ran the biggest Ponzi scheme in U.S. history outside of the government. The Social Security system is a Ponzi scheme, he got the idea from that, he said. But he had an incredible resume. He was president of NASDAQ. He sat on ethics committees. You know, the guy’s resume was amazing. You never would have suspected he was running this big Ponzi scheme.
And then the other one is John Corzine, MF Global. He was governor of New Jersey. Okay? Like, these guys had giant resumes, right? So, you’ve got to really do your due diligence. That’s what this meeting’s about.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, and I think some of these guys, too I think even with Bernie Madoff, if you watch some of the documentaries, he started it started out legit. The first five or ten years, he was legit. And then he had a loss, and he borrowed from his father-in-law, and he tried like, he didn’t acknowledge it to investors.
And I think we’re like, “What is it that causes people to do that?” It’s the ego. It’s, “I’ve got to be this,” and just like people that can’t tell bad news. You’ve got to be… it’s hard having conversations with investors when things don’t go well. But we’ve got to be as honest as we can, as quick as we can, right? Because that’s where trust is built.
Tom, I know you’ve been around a long time. You’ve been doing this for a very long time. But tell us some of the I mean, you have some stories. I know some stories are coming to your mind as you’re hearing all this.
Tom Burns: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I could go on forever. You know, it’s funny, and I used to tell people, “Hey, be what you know.” Whenever you sign a PPM, you’re signing, you’re realizing, “I’m taking all this risk.” And I’ll tell people, you know, “I’ll tell them, this looks pretty good.”
But Bernie Madoff paid his investors for 20 years. I’ve said that forever and ever, and it’s true.
And to tag on to what Jason said, you know, great resumes are awesome and also, yeah, I mean, they’re not awesome. But you need to be aware of, be wary of, a great resume. And be wary of people around them touting how wonderful they are.
That’s another that’s sort of one of those wolf tricks that you mentioned before. So, yeah, some of them are quite brilliant, I would say. And, you know, you mentioned one that started legit and then just was too hard for him to say, “I lost some money.” I would have stopped it there probably smart guy. Some start because it’s just a lot easier to cheat, I think. And they are quite smart.
You know, Denis said he’d bought into three Ponzi schemes, and people were giving him grief for that. It takes a while to learn those lessons. And some of these folks are very, very smart. One of them that I was involved in billionaires invested with their teams of people, large funds invested. And so, which was my attempt to diversify into something I didn’t know much about. I thought, “Well, let’s be smart about this, Tom.”
And so, anyway, things happen.
I I can’t mention any names, but yeah, they’re out there. They’re brilliant.
And I guess the last thing I would tell folks is, go ahead and be that guy. Be that guy that irritates the sponsor almost and asks too many questions. I used to get those folks.
I mean, I’ve been a sponsor for 30 years, and they irritate you, but they make you think. They make you come up with the good answers if they ask good questions. You don’t know the answer my answer typically was, “I don’t know, but I’ll find out,” if I didn’t know the answer.
So go ahead and be that guy. I’ve been that guy on several of the things that I’ve been involved in as an investor. As a passive investor, it would have saved me some trouble. Probably would have saved Denis too, if he’d been that guy and used some diligence, you know, used a diligence checklist or something.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, thanks so much. We’ll have Denis in just a minute here. I just want to share the results of the poll. It looks like the number one fear of investing passively 61% says losing my principal. So, Warren Buffett would be proud. Don’t lose your… don’t lose money. Don’t lose money.
And then the second one is picking the wrong operator or deal, and then being misled by the marketing or hype. And then the others kind of follow that.
So, just to be real transparent, you know, we invested in this ATM machine fund. We had investors. We raised millions of dollars for this. And we did a fair amount of diligence. I think there are a few things I’ve learned from this, and one is that if… if income is very predictable, meaning it’s every month…
It’s every quarter, like clockwork. You have to make sure you really understand why that is. And if you can’t get in and see if there’s some sort of black box system. I think even from the one that somebody mentioned already, talking about the carbon capture deal I didn’t invest in that one but that was like a too-good-to-be-true deal, right?
It had some element that was like 200% year-one invested of active tax losses. So this was like a holy grail for doctors or people that made a lot of money. So, if there’s a too-good-to-be-true element, if there was a predictability, if it’s just like every month it was just like clockwork for, you know, dozens of years…
It was like, well, maybe. And also, there’s a black box to it, right? They’re not willing to share it’s so private that they couldn’t tell you. But then maybe it’s still a good idea, right? Those are some things that I’ve learned.
Denis, talk to us. I know you’ve seen a lot. You’ve literally wrote The Almanac. So talk to us. And you’ve had three deals that didn’t thank you for sharing that, by the way. And a lot that we’re talking about this, because, you know, it’s great that we talk about it and we learn about it together.
Denis Shapiro: Yeah, and I think too many times, from a marketing perspective, as a sponsor, you’re trying to get investors, so you tend to be more optimistic. I actually if you follow me on LinkedIn I’m one of the most pessimistic people out there when it comes to this stuff, because I’ve been personally impacted by it. So it’s left a scar, and I would rather tell people kind of how it is.
So I did want to piggyback because I have some notes here some things that Jason has said, some things that Tom said.
So, first off, on the resume thing: don’t be fooled by decades, like those comments, like, “Hey, they’ve been around for decades.”
The two Ponzi two of the three Ponzi schemes that I invested in one of them was the ATM fund. You know, their track record goes back.
I picked up over a decade, 13 years. The other one was a development company in the New Jersey area that was doing New Jersey and Florida. And we did a lot of due diligence on it.
They were actually… the hardest ones to catch are the ones where there’s a real business underneath the Ponzi scheme.
So they were an actual development company. They had apartment buildings, and they were also selling high-end condos in Florida. They gave us a list of their properties, and you go on Zillow, and you see the condos, and you see it being sold, and you see their name right there. So there’s an element of, like, “Hey, even if you’re doing a lot of due diligence” especially with ATM funds there was an element of, like, “Hey, we’re gonna randomly take certain ATM locations and we’re gonna go in there.”
And I was actually since I’m in New Jersey a lot of the ATMs that were mentioned in that fund, they were on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. So I would actually, when I would take road trips, stop along the Turnpike and I would see the ATM. So it was like the self-reassuring, like, “Oh, this business has to be real, right?” because I’m seeing their product.
Bronson Hill: So I did… I did the same thing, really. I started I did the same thing as well. And the issue was, they had a legitimate they had 10,000 ATMs, but they did not have 25,000. And so, one of the issues was, like, how can you possibly check 25,000 ATMs?
Denis Shapiro: So, that’s a great point. Don’t be fooled where you can verify some of the business plan, but not the full business plan. So don’t have overconfidence, like, “Oh yeah, I did my homework.” No, there’s still things that could go wrong.
The first thing I wanted to say is about the decades. Sometimes the music just stops on your account, and the 19 years of investors previously get out unscathed. It happens all the time.
Next thing is, don’t be fooled into terms. So, one of the Ponzi schemes I invested in, they allowed us to come in at a certain level, but they gave us, like, a certain promote that they were saving for. Like, we came in at 150, but they gave us the terms that we would have gotten if we came in at 500. So, if there’s any kind of finagling, then there might be a too-good-to-be-true type of radar. So just keep that in mind.
The other thing is advertising. Really, a good operator their investors really send them a lot of referrals. There’s a sense that they are not relying too heavily on fresh advertisement. One of the Ponzi schemes I invested in actually had a billboard right outside the Holland Tunnel, and they were doing ads on the radio. So, it was a couple of things, and to me, they were actually red flags. Because if they were so good, and they had this, you know, 19-year history, why did they have to do that? But it was something that was good enough for me to question, but I didn’t go fully through.
So I think that’s really important, question too much advertisement.
The other thing, I think you mentioned this, Bronson, is the over-glorification on taxes. Don’t let the tax dog… kind of thing. I think that’s huge.
Jason Hartman: I was gonna say that, Denis. Don’t let the tax dog wag the… don’t let the tax tail wag the dog. Taxes tax deals are great, but the investment needs to make sense in and of itself. I’ve seen that a lot, where people will invest just… just for the tax benefits.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, the deal is terrible.The fees are terrible, or the DSTs sometimes they charge you like five to ten percent just to get in, and then they charge you two to five percent per year. It’s… it’s crazy. So those fees are legit. Keep going, Denis.
Denis Shapiro: And the last one I could honestly go all day, like Tom said but the last one we want to talk about that doesn’t get talked about enough is culture.
Like, what is the actual culture of that operator? One of the Ponzi schemes that I thought too was with an investor relations person. And usually, as an LP, I want to have a direct relationship with the person who creates the culture for that company. And that’s usually the head operator or whatever it is.
And as an LP, usually one of the biggest advantages of private real estate is that you can meet the person who’s in charge without it being… without going to jail for insider trading, right? So you have that huge, huge advantage with private real estate.
And the deals that went bad like the ATM fund I didn’t know the person personally. I invested via reputation and not relationship.
So just remember, the culture is usually set by the person at the top. You should actually know crazy things about them like what car they drive, or do they have, you know, three ex-wives. Those are little details that tell a lot.
Jason Hartman: Because those three ex-wives could be very expensive
Denis Shapiro: Could be very expensive. Believe it or not, one of the Ponzi schemes I’m reading the transcript of the Chapter 11 documents and two of the people who were having the money filtered to them were two ex-wives. So there are a lot of things like that that I think you overlook, because you get enamored by, like, “Oh, there’s an 18–20% return, it hits the tax buckets, look at the consistent payments. I have five people in my network that I know, I’ve been getting these payments, it’s great.”
You know, so-and-so… you know, so-and-so… there was a really big name that was behind the ATM fund, and, like, “Oh, his due diligence is world class. There’s no way he would make a mistake.” All of this stuff… it blinds you from the basics of investing. And in private real estate, it all comes down to relationships and actually working with good, honest people.
Jason Hartman: You know, Denis, what you’re making me think of that hopefully all of you have seen, and you should watch, because it’s part of your education. And I’m talking to everybody watching this is the show American Greed on CNBC.
I think it’s just in reruns now, but literally every American Greed episode like 99 of them there are some certain characteristics that all of these scams have in common.
Number one, they were always super generous. Okay, the person was always really generous, supported all kinds of charities, and that’s always… that’s always the thing. Whenever someone is overly generous, a lot of times the reason for that is they’re not really earning their money. Okay? They’re getting free money they’re being generous with money, they’re stealing. Okay?
So, you know, that’s a common thread I’ve noticed on American Greed, because I’ve watched a zillion of those episodes. The other thing is they all have some kind of pool of money or investment that they’re running, right? But, you know, a lot of honest people do that too, obviously.
And then they’re always, like, super generous with their friends taking them out, bottle service at the nightclub, stuff like that. You always hear those kinds of things. Just like you hear with, you know, Jeff Domer’s neighbors. He was such a nice guy. You know, it’s like the same idea, right?
Bronson Hill: Yeah, perception is not reality.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, they’re always, you know, like popular. Think about it: any con artist the stock and trade of a con artist is they’re really charismatic people. They’re nice. They’re generous. They’re likeable, right? That’s their tool. Okay?
And, you know, that’s not to say everybody who’s like that is that way, but the people who are that way are always like that. Okay? Because that’s how they get away with it.
Bronson Hill: And I think some of it too is, when you look back, we can see it. You know, we can see it very clearly. We learn the lessons. And, you know, some of these things like, for example, the ATM but we’re talking about over 700 million dollars over a period of 13 years. These are banks were involved. There are lawsuits now involving banks and funds and family offices. I mean, huge… huge.
So some of these are very sophisticated. I want to just check in with our audience here. How are you guys enjoying this? Is this good?
Why don’t you put some in the chat give these guys some love, human emoji, give them something if this is good. I feel like this is great. You guys are really sharing some awesome stuff.
I did want Jason, you did have a little bit of a couple slides that you were going to go over. And again, we’re not trying to point someone out, except, you know, case studies are important. And that’s why I really love this talk today, because we all have things that we’re sharing. We’ve all been through stuff.
And so, again, I hope, as an investor, you look at this and say, “I can…” You know, as a wise person learns from their own mistakes, but a genius learns from the mistakes of others, right? So all of us up here have had issues and things haven’t gone as well as we wanted. So that’s how we learn.
So, Jason, go ahead and just share a couple slides.
Jason Hartman: Well, I can’t get my thing to work here. Sorry. This should be on… I don’t know where my buttons went.
But anyway, this is not on slideshow mode, so it’s a little sloppy looking. But this is the case this was in the Orange County Register. It was in many media outlets. This is the Marco Santorelli case, and this is Narada Capital Management, his fund company, but he’s mostly known by Narada Real Estate.
So I think the first hearing that kind of starts his trial and legal proceedings is on October 20th in Orange County, California. It’s a federal indictment, and, you know, they’re accusing him of stealing basically 63 million dollars, almost.
And, you know, the article goes on in the Orange County Register and profiles many of the people who lost money. One of them is one of our clients actually, he also was a Marco Santorelli client and he lost a bunch of money with him. So I hope there’s some recovery. I think from what I heard, the feds did seize some money from him, about like five million dollars or something. But, you know, there’s a lot more that was lost it’s 62.5 million.
Bronson Hill: Let me see some of this real quick too. Is this… this is a guy that, you know, I went to events where this guy was at. I wouldn’t say he was the most personable guy, but he would speak at events. He would go places. And, Jason had a radar about him early on. I just thought, you know, actually we have some mutual friends who know him.
But it’s… sometimes it’s hard. Obviously, we look back, we can see it, and we think, no one in our… but that’s the challenge of this industry. It’s not regulated.
You know, if you’re a broker-dealer, if you’re an advisor, there are still people that do things illegal, but it is a little bit of the Wild West. And that’s where it’s like, when we start with a new operator, we typically never just invest right away. I mean, I have a new deal we’re going to do with somebody that it’s a new deal. It’s kind of a VC-type of deal, so much higher risk, right? Because it’s much potential, higher return.
I know this person for over 10 years. I’ve invested in other deals with them. We invest in other things together. We have a lot of mutual friends. I’ve worked with them on other types of projects outside of investing. And so, there’s a big history there, right?
So, if I made somebody new, I was at the All-In Summit recently. I met a guy who’s doing Bitcoin mining with data centers or something, and I’m thinking, like, man, I would never… wouldn’t invest with this guy because I don’t know him. He’s just some guy.
And that’s the challenge for passive investors. And if you’re not in networks, if you’re not in a group like Jason’s group I know Denis and Tom have masterminds we have a mastermind. We’re doing a meeting in Dallas next week if you want to come to Dallas. We have people come in, and put a room together, because that information among passive investors is so important. And when you’re busy, and you’re in your own little world, or you live in a small town, it’s hard to get that.
Tom, why don’t you add in? I know you can add into this as well anything? I don’t know if, did you meet this guy as well? I think he came on one of the cruises or one of the events.
Tom Burns: Oh, yeah.
Bronson Hill: Yeah.
Tom Burns: Oh, yeah. You know, the folks that do this, like I said, they’re not stupid, you know, and they’ve got charisma.
So, you know, they feed on our greed. They feed on our emotions, you guys. So, a little bit higher returns, that’s part of my 10 points on this thing.
But you guys mentioned it they’re always your new best friend. You know, Jason, in the 30 minutes I’ve spent with you, you’ve changed my life. I want to do something for you. I’m going to take you on my private plane just because of how good you’ve been tonight.
Or Denis, I’m going to give you a special deal, which you mentioned. So, they were number one. They will do that to their prey, is what I call them. That’s why I called it the wolf.
But they’ll stalk, then they’ll stalk long term. So, they like to haunt these affinity groups, and there’s a lot of them. There’s EO, YPO, Tiger 360 real estate guys back in the day. So, there’s a ton of groups.
So, I like what you said, Bronson, about getting yourself in some sort of group where nobody’s got, everybody’s either got the same dog in the hunt, or nobody’s got a dog in the hunt. We’re all looking at. We’re all looking at Denis’s deal, or all of Jason’s deal, or Tom’s deal. You know, let’s ask all these questions, let’s talk it out, and see if it’s worth it. You know, if we invest in it, whether we invest as a group or whether you invest individually.
But those people are out there. They’re going to keep coming after you. The ones that have been indicted, they’re finished right now. Some of them get to come back and be motivational speakers.
Jason Hartman: Like the wolf of Wall Street, right?
Tom Burns: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, just try to keep learning. I mean, this is a super valuable hour that you’re putting on for folks. And I think, from what I’ve heard, I think all three of us could go on for four hours at a time talking about people.
So, yes, I knew this person reasonably well.
Bronson Hill: And this is why we do things like this, but this is why too, I love events. I love getting in the room with people, and actually this is we’re doing a little different at this next meeting. We’re doing next week, next Friday, the 26, in Dallas.
We’re basically, you know, gonna have a time we’re just like, hey, let’s go into small groups to figure out, like, what are people actually doing? What’s going on? Who’s doing something a little different?
And if somebody’s like, we’re gonna have a discussion around what people are doing, like… “Hey, I’m doing this certain thing, and it’s worked well for 10 years, and I’d work with these guys… I’d never work with these guys again,” right?
Like, like you were saying, Tom… everyone in finance is biased.
Like, all of us here have deals we want to… I am biased as well. I want everybody to do our deals. I love our deals.
But the problem, as a passive investor, is you need to get other people that don’t have a dog in the fight.
They’re just simply like, “Hey, I want to share information and let’s talk.”
And I can’t express this enough if you’re worth a million, two, three million dollars, it’s worth paying 25 or 50 thousand dollars to be a part of it.
I know Jason’s a part of a group as well like, to be part of a group where you can actually share and run those things by, where you’re just kind of running ideas by people.
Because I guarantee you… if some of the things that you’ve done, that maybe didn’t work out as well, if you were to run some of those by some of those people… they may start expressing some challenges. “Hey, here’s the things I don’t like.”
And, again, you know, it’s hard to look in the mirror and say, “I did this, and this didn’t work.”
But those are the kind of people you want to be around, right?
These guys — I mean, this room right now is incredibly valuable, or this — this virtual room.
Were you going to say something, Jason? You were going to jump in there?
Jason Hartman: Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that I would say is a common thing among the American greed fraudsters is that they, and Tom kind of alluded to this. They seem to, they definitely prey on people, but they also kind of show them an aspirational life. Like Tom mentioned, you know, oh, they take you for a ride on their private jet. They’re suddenly your new best friend, right? And that is unrealistic. Okay.
Now, granted, there are lots of realistic people with private jets out there, right? I purchased a couple airplanes and lost money, too. Okay. But, but you know what, what I’m saying is that, like if you think of compare that to say Warren Buffett, right?
He would never do that. Okay, he like called his private jet inexcusable or something like that. That was the name of it because he thought it was so ridiculous. You know, the guy lived in the same home for decades.
It’s only worth like eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. They’re not super showy. Okay, and a lot of these guys are super showy. And another thing that Denis kind of alluded to is, they do a real estate deal and then suddenly they’ve got a bitcoin mining deal. A totally like unrelated thing that they don’t know anything about, okay. And, it’s the new sort of flavor of the month idea, right? So, the long-term people that are consistent, they do a few things.
Well, they know those industries. They know those worlds. They know the players in them. They’re not going off getting involved in all this crazy stuff, right?
Bronson Hill: You know, I think you guys would agree with that. I’m sure you know one thing that you bring up is really true is that how things have changed the last 20 years especially is we have this influencer culture, right? You get people that you admire and there’s an assumption that because this influencer does this certain thing really well, or they’re a celebrity or they’re an athlete or something.
Well, they must have that same level of excellence when it comes to vetting their deals or doing, but then they know nothing about bitcoin mining. They know nothing about real estate, but it’s so easy now. I know people that literally know nothing about business, but they have a huge following of business people, and they literally, it’s like there’s a saying, those that can’t do teach, right? And it’s not always true, but a lot of times it is, right. There’s people teaching business classes that have never had a business, right?
And there’s things that, that’s okay in the educational setting, but in this, I think it’s important to look at. We’re going to take some questions. I want to see if anybody in the audience has any questions, so if you have any questions, please drop them either in the chat or in the Q&A, and we’ll kind of jump around from there. So what else, I guess when it looks at, we talked a little bit about like looking for too good to be true, what are things that you look for?
Actually, before we do, let’s do this or keep three lists. Okay, we’ll come back to that. If questions, drop them in there, but what are some things that I guess from a good operator, and some of you guys do operate deals, I know Jason, you help people get into great deals, but when you invest, like what are…
Jason Hartman: They’re not all great. It’s not perfect.
Bronson Hill: No, thank you for sharing.
Tom Burns: That’s what makes a good operator.
Jason Hartman: The first guy that says all my deals are great.
Bronson Hill: I know they’re all perfect. I guess what are they, I guess we kind of talked about some of the red flags. What are the green flags? What are the things that, when I have a call with an operator or when I get a referral, like how do I?
What are some things I am looking for? Let’s maybe start with Tom. We’ll work our way around Denis, Jason.
Tom Burns: You know, transparency, I mean it’s so easy to say, but it’s real, and somebody that, because if you’re, if you’re talking with somebody new, they’re not going to have a chance to have done a deal with them. I love it when somebody calls me to tell me that stuff’s gone bad. I don’t love hearing that news, but if somebody’s going to call me about their deal and say, look, we have this challenge. And we’re going to work really hard on it, but I want you to hear it from me. Or somebody that will, I like to look at their reports. I want to see the bank statements and the rent rolls and on the balance sheet and the profit and loss and all that stuff. You know, that can be, can be altered.
But I just want somebody that’s transparent and somebody that looks for market rate returns. If they do better, great, but I just want to see them not promising anything crazy. I want to tell, want them to show me something that’s going to compound and do well over time. And if the market’s nice to them, maybe it’ll do better.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, love that. That’s great. Thank you for that. Denis, what about you? What are some things that you, some green flags that you look for from an operator?
Denis Shapiro: So every time Tom and Jason say something, I make a note because I kind of want to piggyback on what they’re saying. So last thing that Tom said, market rate returns and Jason said Warren Buffett. So one really golden rule I personally have is that if the returns are better than Berkshire’s annual returns for last like 30 years, that’s probably not like, that’s a bad thing. So you want under that.
Berkshire’s historical annual returns, I don’t remember right before the recent run-up was 13 to 15 percent. So when I see deals that are like 20, 22 percent, I was like well, you’re investing in someone who’s promoting that they could do, they could outdo Buffett by five to seven percent. So, right, you might want to be a little bit weary on that. But some good signs that I do look at, I actually like when I see a bad marketer, because it’s almost like when you go into that hole in the wall restaurant that has amazing food. You’re like, the only way they’re surviving is if they have incredible food because they don’t have decor, they don’t have anything.
Bronson Hill: So I have a theory. I have a theory the the better the presentation probably the worse the dealers
Tom Burns: They say the shinier the brochure the worse the deal
Denis Shapiro: So I’m a hundred percent. If they have a huge following and they have thousands of investors, blah blah, usually they don’t have to be great operators. But the guys who are like, if you think of them as an operator before a marketer, that’s a good thing. That’s what I really like to see.
The next thing I really want to see is like a really simple deal structure. A lot of Ponzi schemes that I invested in were evergreen funds. And there’s nothing inherently wrong with evergreen fund, just for those who are not aware. Evergreen fund is a fund that stays open and money constantly flows in and out. The problem with that is that when times get bad, because money is flowing in when times are bad, that is when it tempts a good operate.
I remember I always had this call with securities attorney and their favorite line is to say, no, no Ponzi scheme ever starts off as a Ponzi scheme. No one ever goes, hey, I’m gonna raise a bunch of money to steal from other people. But what happens is you got money flowing in, you don’t want to have make that tough call and say, hey, we have to stop the distribution.
So a simple deal structure is either a closed-ended fund, where it means like, hey, we’re gonna raise money for a year or two, it’s gonna last for 10 years. And after that two years, after buying a couple properties, we’re gonna start disposing in year six. All right, I could wrap my head around that, or a single LLC, where a single purpose LLC, where it’s, hey, this apartment building. This LLC, if things get tough, we’re stopping distributions, and that’s it. You’re not, at least you might lose your money, if operationally the deal goes south, but it won’t be stolen from you like it would in a Ponzi scheme. So those are kind of things.
Those are the green flags that I look for, that marketer, simple deal structures, and returns that are below Berkshires returns.
Bronson Hill: Love it. We’re getting a few questions in here. We’ll answer this, somebody’s asking if you guys offer due diligence services. Do you guys have a service that you offer this to look at deals?
Tom Burns: I offer the education on due diligence, but not the service. No, i’m gonna leave that leave that up to the investor to learn themselves
Bronson Hill: Yeah, Jason. I know one person that was doing this, I don’t know if she’s still doing it, but it would be like 10 hours of work at a decent rate to kind of go through it. One thing I will say, you can take PPMs and marketing material and put it into ChatGPT. Literally, download, just stick it in there.
Jason Hartman: That’s better than nothing, but it’s certainly not perfect.
Bronson Hill: Act as my risk assessment, whatever, just give me all the things that you know are positive, all the negatives. It’ll at least open your eyes.
Jason Hartman: It’ll open your eyes, but you still have to actually do the work. Like, the AI just doesn’t get it. It says weird things. It hallucinates.
It doesn’t understand context. You know, it’ll just say like, nutty stuff sometimes, so be careful of that. But yeah, it’s a tool. Okay, you know, just understand it’s hardly perfect.
But to answer your question, Bronson, yeah, I would do due diligence because I find this fun, to like, you know, find fraud and investigate things. You know, I just, I think in my other life, I really would have loved being an investigative journalist. There are hardly any left anymore, but, it’s, that just seems like a cool profession. Doesn’t pay well, but it’s a big service to the world. And I would do that if someone would just hire me at my coaching rate, you know, and they could just hire me by the hour. And I would, I would do due diligence for him. I have before.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, we’ve done similar stuff like that for people With with ppms.
Denis Shapiro: I just want to say, the 80/20 rule applies. If you spend usually those things are 100 pages long there are a few sections that are critical. You just learn at least those sections, like, you will be way, way better off.
Look at the capital call section that will tell you everything you need to know about the syndicator. Because the capital call could be voluntary, or it could be mandatory, or it could be like, hey, if you don’t do this, we’ll actually strip your equity away. So there’s a huge range on that capital call language, and I’ve known great operators that fell on the right side, and they never had the deal go bad.
And that language alone rubbed a lot of potential investors the wrong way. So even if you just there’s, there’s 10 sections of the PPM that you have to read with a microscope, but you don’t have to actually read a hundred pages of the PPM. Not saying to skip it, 80/20 rule applies.
Jason Hartman: Yeah, and definitely, you know, Denis and Tom. These are some great tips, and Bronx and yours too. These are really insightful for me. I love this talk. The other thing is, you know, look at the operator’s fees for sure, but folks, at the end of the day, you all have to do the math. Okay, like, just do the math.
Okay, someone comes to you with a deal. They’re buying a building. You have to think of it like you’re the buyer and you’re the tenant. Like, does the math make sense? Okay, if the math itself does not make sense, there is no deal there.
Okay, it has to make sense, like, can they really rent these units for this amount of money? You know how many units there are, multiply them, you know, what’s the average rent gonna be? You know, just think through the deal, like, think through it as though you were buying it individually, or think as if you were the customer of that deal, like you were the tenant renting the units, if it’s a medical office or an apartment complex or whatever, right?
You know, like does the deal just make fundamental sense?
Bronson Hill: Okay. Yeah. No, it’s it’s huge.
It’s huge, guys. This is incredible. I love, just so much respect for you guys, for both showing up your experience as well as just sharing it. A lot of this stuff is private, and that’s where it’s so important. And that’s, I just, I can’t say enough to people listening and watching. It’s just, get in the room with amazing people and get in the room with people I could be honest with you, and I gotta talk about wins and losses. Some of the best things are, don’t just ask, hey, what’s gone well? What’s something that hasn’t gone?
Well, we have this group I want everybody to join, this, if you want, it’s our wealth forum kind of starter pack. And we have different levels. This one is free. So if you go on there, people are sharing deals. I put it in the chat. If you join, you basically can be a part of a community sharing deals, and we have our live events as well that you can join from there.
Okay, lightning round here. And then we’re going to kind of, basically, be able to there are some questions in the chat. If you guys want to answer those one-on-one, feel free to do it. But the first one there, I want to go around, then we’re going to kind of ask for next steps. Just a quick reminder, this will be sent out as a replay to you, so you will get it either tonight or tomorrow.
So feel free to share it. Real quick, lightning round. What types of assets are you seeing right now that you really like? So let’s go, Tom. What sort of assets it could be in your business, could be outside of your business what are you really liking right now as an investment in job?
Tom Burns: Yeah, like what Jason said, I like to, you know, stick with what you know. I’ve been in the multifamily world for a long time. I still think finding them, but I’m good in-place, kind of out of development now. But I think, if you’ve got, I like multifamily in-place property right now. Mostly a class that’s been around for a while, needs a little bit of spruce up. I like that. I think, if it does well now, um, I think it’ll be fine in the future. You can pick up a lot of them for well below replacement costs. So I like that. Yeah, it’s great.
Bronson Hill: Thanks, ma’am. Appreciate that, Denis. What’s, what’s maybe something that you’re really excited about right now, as far as personally or as in your business?
Denis Shapiro: Our two favorites right now are definitely affordable housing in the life tech space. There’s not a lot of buyers out there for that asset class. We love the replacement cost. You know, we can buy things for 30 to 40 a door for seven, eight hundred dollar rents. So it’s a very unique asset class.
And then, I’m on the Jersey Shore, so it’s pretty local to me. We think there’s a lot of opportunity in hospitality, where you have older motels in prime locations that haven’t been touched in 20, 30, 40 years. So we’re aggressively we actually just got one on the contract now, but we’re gonna be aggressively buying those in the next couple of years.
We think multi, we think commercial real estate in general, for the first time in three years, with rates going down now, there’s some, there’s some nice tailwinds that we think we could pick up. But again, make sure, you know, the financing that’s in place for those deals.
Bronson Hill: Love it. Thank you. Jason, what are you excited about right now from an investment standpoint?
Jason Hartman: You know, it hasn’t changed in decades. Housing, housing, housing you can do that in a lot of forms. Like Denis said, you can do affordable housing. Like Tom said, you know, you can do apartments, you can do whatever. I just like simple, humble single-family homes. I always say the single-family home as a rental property is the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. It’s the most tax-favored asset class in America. And we have a massive housing shortage.
Do not listen to what the doomers say they’re simply getting clickbait. They are, they’ve been just wrong, wrong, and wrong over and over again. We need between 1.5 and 7 million additional homes in this country, and we’re just not building them fast enough. What happened after the Great Recession is they just stopped building, and especially, they stopped building entry-level housing.
So that’s really where the market is, and we just need a lot more entry-level housing. I mean, when the Treasury Secretary and the President say there’s a housing emergency, you know, that’s a sign you might want to pay attention to this asset class.
It really is. So yeah, I just, I just like good old single-family homes.
I mean, I invest in pretty much everything personally, but you know, it depends where you are in your career. Like, my career is almost over. I’ve been doing this a very long time, right? And, you know, so I’m pretty diversified, and I just like checking out different stuff, but a lot of times, it doesn’t go well for me.
Okay, I wouldn’t recommend that my customers do all that stuff. You know, I kind of always looked at myself as a, as a litmus test, a lab rat, you know, for deals, and so I do, you know, some interesting alternative stuff, but just for the simple, conservative investor just housing, you know, whatever form you do it in.
Bronson Hill: Yeah, sure, guys, this has been awesome. Really appreciate you. Let’s give them some love, guys.
Put some emojis or some thank-you’s in the chat there. This has been an incredibly collaborative thing. I think we get so much out of panels that we don’t get just hearing people one-on-one. You guys are awesome to bring together. We have something really incredible, so please share this when it comes out.
Please let others know about it. We do have our next event. We do these monthly, like I shared, we do different topics. So the next panel is going to be on the 21st of October. It’s how to buy your first business.
So there’s a huge thing a lot of boomers are retiring. How do you actually buy a business, and how do you manage and buy, and what type of businesses should you look for? So if you’re interested in that topic, you can check that out.
Okay, let’s just go through real quick from each person, and just, what’s something that, you know. How can people connect with you if they want to, if you have a gift or anything, ways people can connect with you? Would love to hear that. So just keep it to about 30 seconds if you can so we can finish on time.
Tom Burns.
Tom Burns: Yeah, email [email protected] or if you go to the website, richdoctor.com. There’s a ton of free stuff there to help folks that are wanting to invest in things and maybe look into real estate. It’s all free. Love it..
Bronson Hill: Okay. Awesome. Denis.
Denis Shapiro: My website, SIHcapelgroup.com, or you can email me directly, Denis, with one “n” d-e-n-i-s at SIHcapelgroup.com. I’d love to connect with all of you guys.
Thanks, Jason. How can people connect with you?
Jason Hartman: My main website is jasonhartman.com just my name. But you can check out my YouTube channel, my podcast. My main podcast is called The Creating Wealth Show. Just type Jason Hartman on any podcast platform or YouTube. Awesome.
Bronson Hill: Love it. And guys, appreciate you being here. Like I said, you guys can reach out our website, my email’s in the box there. We’re doing deals as well. I think all these folks here are doing deals and helping people get involved.
So thanks, everybody, for being here. Appreciate you taking the time. This will be sent out to you as a replay. And again, so grateful to our panelists for being here, and thank you for the questions that came in from the audience. When you get a chance, get to all the questions, but please do reach out individually to myself or one of the panelists here.
I’m looking forward to seeing everybody on the next monthly panel or sooner.
Appreciate you guys. Thank you so much.
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